ddtlm
Oct 10, 07:55 PM
javajedi:
Yes, the JVM is the deciding factor here. If the Java takes that damn long on a G4 but goes fast on a P4, can can rest assured that the JVM Apple is distributing sucks compared to whatever one the x86 machines are using.
There is no way in heck that the performance delta can be so large without a large difference in quality of JVM. G4's may be slower, but they are not as slow as those number indicate.
Like I've been saying, when you start to see 5x leads by the PCs you need to start asking questions about the fairness of the benchmark. The G4 is better than 1/5 the speed. There are very few things were a P4 can get better performance per clock than a G4.
BTW:
Your G3 results as bizzarre as well, because of the contrast between them and the G4 results. Do not take it as proof one way or the other of the G3 or other IBM chips being superior to the G4. What we have here are raw numbers that defy a simple explanations. We should ask why these numbers are popping up, rather than running off with them as if they were uttered by a great voice in the sky or somthing.
Yes, the JVM is the deciding factor here. If the Java takes that damn long on a G4 but goes fast on a P4, can can rest assured that the JVM Apple is distributing sucks compared to whatever one the x86 machines are using.
There is no way in heck that the performance delta can be so large without a large difference in quality of JVM. G4's may be slower, but they are not as slow as those number indicate.
Like I've been saying, when you start to see 5x leads by the PCs you need to start asking questions about the fairness of the benchmark. The G4 is better than 1/5 the speed. There are very few things were a P4 can get better performance per clock than a G4.
BTW:
Your G3 results as bizzarre as well, because of the contrast between them and the G4 results. Do not take it as proof one way or the other of the G3 or other IBM chips being superior to the G4. What we have here are raw numbers that defy a simple explanations. We should ask why these numbers are popping up, rather than running off with them as if they were uttered by a great voice in the sky or somthing.
lighthouse_man
Apr 13, 03:01 AM
Why are you people comparing one app price tag to the whole suite price tag? For all we know, all the suite apps will be released individually and will total what the full suite now costs.
somemacuser
Apr 5, 11:04 PM
Was a MSFT user since DOS. Switched about 2.5 years ago. I'd concur with the few gripes already listed in here that are a bit of a change for windows users - my favorites (quitting applications isnt alt-f4 anymore, cmd-tab doesnt cycle windows, not being able to launch multiple occurrences of an application, giving up the ability to repair my imac myself, and the lack of a PC-like "delete" key instead of the backspace delete that's on the wireless keyboard - WTF!).
However, for the few things that were a change for me, I discover new stuff seemingly every week that makes me smile at the thoughtfulness that has been put into the Mac/OSX. Hard to list them all, but the sum of them makes the whole experience SO well done. A few weeks after getting the Mac I was ticked I waited so long to cut over. It was a non issue. I didnt make the leap until I was satisfied parallels would still be a viable option to run XP. It works great, but I never use it other than to show people a mac can run windows. :) OSX is so stable, smooth (scrolling, transitions, etc.), beautiful hardware, and elegant to work in I had no desire to go back. I am well aware that Windows 7 has come a long way, but its *still* not as thoughtfully designed.
As has been said many times on this site, ultimately, you can accomplish the same stuff on a PC, but its not as pleasant or easy to get there. As I get older and have less free time in my life with family/career, I appreciate just getting what I want out of the computer and not tinkering. I've done a 180 from my earlier days of taking some pleasure in reformatting a pc and reinstalling windows clean. Now my time spent fiddling is learning cool stuff in aperture and imovie. And I am constantly amazed at the quality of the output vs. the time invested.
Its hard not to be a raving fan of a tool that is that is so enjoyable to use, gives pleasure when you just look at the damn thing, and gives a meaningful return on time spent "learning" it. But my needs may be different than yours. 15 years ago I pounded code for a living and scoffed at apple stuff. Today my way of making a living and my priorities in life are very different. The mac is the right choice for me even if I cant close an application in one click from the corner.
However, for the few things that were a change for me, I discover new stuff seemingly every week that makes me smile at the thoughtfulness that has been put into the Mac/OSX. Hard to list them all, but the sum of them makes the whole experience SO well done. A few weeks after getting the Mac I was ticked I waited so long to cut over. It was a non issue. I didnt make the leap until I was satisfied parallels would still be a viable option to run XP. It works great, but I never use it other than to show people a mac can run windows. :) OSX is so stable, smooth (scrolling, transitions, etc.), beautiful hardware, and elegant to work in I had no desire to go back. I am well aware that Windows 7 has come a long way, but its *still* not as thoughtfully designed.
As has been said many times on this site, ultimately, you can accomplish the same stuff on a PC, but its not as pleasant or easy to get there. As I get older and have less free time in my life with family/career, I appreciate just getting what I want out of the computer and not tinkering. I've done a 180 from my earlier days of taking some pleasure in reformatting a pc and reinstalling windows clean. Now my time spent fiddling is learning cool stuff in aperture and imovie. And I am constantly amazed at the quality of the output vs. the time invested.
Its hard not to be a raving fan of a tool that is that is so enjoyable to use, gives pleasure when you just look at the damn thing, and gives a meaningful return on time spent "learning" it. But my needs may be different than yours. 15 years ago I pounded code for a living and scoffed at apple stuff. Today my way of making a living and my priorities in life are very different. The mac is the right choice for me even if I cant close an application in one click from the corner.
Huntn
Apr 25, 12:45 PM
Comma added, because my brain was starting to hurt. ;)
And I agree, but then 'power' is lost, and that just won't do, now will it? :rolleyes:
No not really especially when power is often held by those placing themselves in the position of interpreting what God thinks and wants...
I do think it was a bad call when God decided that strapping on explosives and blowing up the local market and it's customers was appropriate. ;)
And I agree, but then 'power' is lost, and that just won't do, now will it? :rolleyes:
No not really especially when power is often held by those placing themselves in the position of interpreting what God thinks and wants...
I do think it was a bad call when God decided that strapping on explosives and blowing up the local market and it's customers was appropriate. ;)
Gelfin
Mar 25, 02:27 PM
All Christians are not Catholics.
That's the only item I was trying to 'underscore' so to speak.
Christians cannot be used interchangeably with Catholics. By using the term 'Christians' one includes a multitude of other peoples with varying religious beliefs.
No argument except as to the point. This would only be a relevant criticism if I were holding Catholics responsible for an attitude held by some Christian sects, but not by Catholics themselves. On the contrary, the Catholic attitude towards homosexuality in question is common across much of Christendom.
This thread is about the Catholic Church, so I name the Catholic Church, but the criticism is properly aimed at the attitude they share ecumenically. The consequences of prejudice against homosexuality as rationalized by Christian dogma are shared among all who promote that prejudice. The Catholic Church is neither singled out (except contextually) nor excused on that account.
And if one goes back and reads the entire exchange, one would see that I used that term so that Appleguy123 could not go find some obscure article on some obscure Catholic sect that murders Homosexuals for fun, a sect that the mainstream governing body of the Catholic church does not endorse nor have control over.
As I said, you want to reserve to the church the right to disclaim responsibility for those who act on the principles it promotes.
I doubt you could find a sect who murdered homosexuals for fun. To return to the analogy, the Klan did not murder black people for fun. They murdered those who stepped out of line, who challenged the social status white people of the era carved out for black people.
As I understand it, the Vatican is the mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic church. Is there another hierarchy that governs the Catholic church?
The mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic Church espouses the belief that homosexuals must be made to conform to Catholic prejudice regarding their proper place in society, and that Catholic belief grants them the right to do so. The premise is wrong before we even get to the method. The mainstream Catholic Church pursues this agenda in ways which do not currently involve terrorist action, but they do pursue it. The obscure terrorist sect you've hypothesized would be operating based on the same flawed premise as the "mainstream" church, arguably even more consistently, since a common interpretation of the Bible does demand the death penalty for homosexuals.
As I keep saying, the immorality lies in the idea that one's prejudice gives one the right to force other people to live their own lives within the boundaries of that prejudice, whatever form that force may take.
That's the only item I was trying to 'underscore' so to speak.
Christians cannot be used interchangeably with Catholics. By using the term 'Christians' one includes a multitude of other peoples with varying religious beliefs.
No argument except as to the point. This would only be a relevant criticism if I were holding Catholics responsible for an attitude held by some Christian sects, but not by Catholics themselves. On the contrary, the Catholic attitude towards homosexuality in question is common across much of Christendom.
This thread is about the Catholic Church, so I name the Catholic Church, but the criticism is properly aimed at the attitude they share ecumenically. The consequences of prejudice against homosexuality as rationalized by Christian dogma are shared among all who promote that prejudice. The Catholic Church is neither singled out (except contextually) nor excused on that account.
And if one goes back and reads the entire exchange, one would see that I used that term so that Appleguy123 could not go find some obscure article on some obscure Catholic sect that murders Homosexuals for fun, a sect that the mainstream governing body of the Catholic church does not endorse nor have control over.
As I said, you want to reserve to the church the right to disclaim responsibility for those who act on the principles it promotes.
I doubt you could find a sect who murdered homosexuals for fun. To return to the analogy, the Klan did not murder black people for fun. They murdered those who stepped out of line, who challenged the social status white people of the era carved out for black people.
As I understand it, the Vatican is the mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic church. Is there another hierarchy that governs the Catholic church?
The mainstream hierarchy of the Catholic Church espouses the belief that homosexuals must be made to conform to Catholic prejudice regarding their proper place in society, and that Catholic belief grants them the right to do so. The premise is wrong before we even get to the method. The mainstream Catholic Church pursues this agenda in ways which do not currently involve terrorist action, but they do pursue it. The obscure terrorist sect you've hypothesized would be operating based on the same flawed premise as the "mainstream" church, arguably even more consistently, since a common interpretation of the Bible does demand the death penalty for homosexuals.
As I keep saying, the immorality lies in the idea that one's prejudice gives one the right to force other people to live their own lives within the boundaries of that prejudice, whatever form that force may take.
iJohnHenry
Mar 14, 04:51 PM
So who was it posting the map?
Speaking of power, your sarcasm meter needs to be on a UPS.
It's a global problem, though the US is the worst offender.
Nice save, and in one sentence.
The U.S. is proving to be the worst thing to happen to Mother Earth since the inception of time.
Speaking of power, your sarcasm meter needs to be on a UPS.
It's a global problem, though the US is the worst offender.
Nice save, and in one sentence.
The U.S. is proving to be the worst thing to happen to Mother Earth since the inception of time.
Trishul
Oct 27, 03:56 AM
ah i'm so glad i check this website, sold my Quad G5 day before yesterday, and put in an order for a Mac Pro, that would have arrived Tuesday, fortunately (at least i hope it turns out that way) i saw this news last night, being unable to cancel online, i had to call and have just now cancelled the order. Don't know how to read into this, and i doubt customer services are in possession of such information but when the lady asked me why i was cancelling i mentioned hearing about new version coming out, it was news to her she thought i was making it up, so she put me on hold, and came back after a minute or two, i was worried she was coming back with news saying i couldn't cancel my order or something, but she had a different tone as if someone told her the news was true and she was happy to cancel.
But seriously i wish there was some more concrete news of the Octo core, i'm going to have to finish off a lot of work this weekend before i ship my G5 on Monday, as i'm going to be without a Mac for at least 2-3 weeks, and even if the new Revision comes out as planned lord knows what the waiting time will be, what if they have option of x1950 or something and we are looking at the delays like before?
Looks like i have an excuse to get one of those new fangled MB Pros. no Mac for a month, can not imagine it. :(
But seriously i wish there was some more concrete news of the Octo core, i'm going to have to finish off a lot of work this weekend before i ship my G5 on Monday, as i'm going to be without a Mac for at least 2-3 weeks, and even if the new Revision comes out as planned lord knows what the waiting time will be, what if they have option of x1950 or something and we are looking at the delays like before?
Looks like i have an excuse to get one of those new fangled MB Pros. no Mac for a month, can not imagine it. :(
ddtlm
Oct 11, 01:45 AM
javajedi:
70-ish seconds navtive on a G3
90-ish seconds on a native on a G4
5.9-6-ish seconds running under JVM 1.4.1 on a P4
Admittedly I am getting lost in what all the numbers people have mentioned are for, but looking at these numbers you have here and assuming that they are doing the same task, you can rest assured that the G3/G4 are running far inferior software. AltiVec and SSE2 or not, there is just nothing that can explain this difference other than an unfair playing field. There is no task that a P4 can do 11x or 12x the speed of a G4 (comparing top-end models here). The P4 posseses nothing that runs at 11x or 12x the speed. Not the clock, not the units, the bandwidth to memory and caches are not 11x or 12x as good, it is not 11x better at branch prediction. I absolutely refuse to accept these results without very substantial backing because they contradict reality as I know it. I know a lot about the P4 and the G4, and I know a lot about programming in a fair number of different languages, even some assembly. I insist that these results do not reflect the actual performance of the processors, until irrefutable proof is presented to show how they do.
I guess the 70 and 90 don't surprise me a lot for the G3/G4, depending on clock speed difference. But all this trendy wandwagon-esque G4-bashing is not correct just cause every one else is doing it. There are things about the G3 that are very nice, but the G4 is no slouch compared to it, and given the higher clock that it's pipeline allows, the G3 really can't keep up. The G4 not only sports a better standard FPU, but it also sports better integer units.
70-ish seconds navtive on a G3
90-ish seconds on a native on a G4
5.9-6-ish seconds running under JVM 1.4.1 on a P4
Admittedly I am getting lost in what all the numbers people have mentioned are for, but looking at these numbers you have here and assuming that they are doing the same task, you can rest assured that the G3/G4 are running far inferior software. AltiVec and SSE2 or not, there is just nothing that can explain this difference other than an unfair playing field. There is no task that a P4 can do 11x or 12x the speed of a G4 (comparing top-end models here). The P4 posseses nothing that runs at 11x or 12x the speed. Not the clock, not the units, the bandwidth to memory and caches are not 11x or 12x as good, it is not 11x better at branch prediction. I absolutely refuse to accept these results without very substantial backing because they contradict reality as I know it. I know a lot about the P4 and the G4, and I know a lot about programming in a fair number of different languages, even some assembly. I insist that these results do not reflect the actual performance of the processors, until irrefutable proof is presented to show how they do.
I guess the 70 and 90 don't surprise me a lot for the G3/G4, depending on clock speed difference. But all this trendy wandwagon-esque G4-bashing is not correct just cause every one else is doing it. There are things about the G3 that are very nice, but the G4 is no slouch compared to it, and given the higher clock that it's pipeline allows, the G3 really can't keep up. The G4 not only sports a better standard FPU, but it also sports better integer units.
*LTD*
May 2, 09:55 AM
Mac OS X fanboys really need to stop clinging to the mentality that "viruses" don't exist for OS X
They don't.
They don't.
WestonHarvey1
Apr 15, 01:12 PM
Sorry but I find this patently laughable. True Christian? Does that mean anyone who doesn't believe in the same interpretation of the bible as you do? I bet there are millions who would point the finger at you and say you are not a true Christian. You both, of course, are wrong as there cannot be any truth in a system based on faith.
Ok, replace "True" for "Orthodox". Mainstream Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox. Pretty much believe the same things. You can even throw some non-orthodox sects in there like the Mormons and still have a huge intersect on beliefs, especially on morality.
Ok, replace "True" for "Orthodox". Mainstream Protestant, Roman Catholic, Eastern Orthodox, Greek Orthodox. Pretty much believe the same things. You can even throw some non-orthodox sects in there like the Mormons and still have a huge intersect on beliefs, especially on morality.
Multimedia
Oct 25, 10:39 PM
I am so there with the cash ready a willing to fly out the window to Apple's account sooner than Apple can say:
"8-Core Mac Pro Available At the Apple Online Store For Ordering." :)
"8-Core Mac Pro Available At the Apple Online Store For Ordering." :)
Fiveos22
Jul 11, 10:53 PM
mmm, AppleInsider vs. Thinksecret
Is this a deathmatch? I think both sites should put something on the line, a little wager, to make this face-off more interesting. Perhaps each should wager their URL... that would be cool.
Is this a deathmatch? I think both sites should put something on the line, a little wager, to make this face-off more interesting. Perhaps each should wager their URL... that would be cool.
alhedges
Mar 18, 02:55 PM
If this fails, and you have money to blow to prove a point, you can probably seek an injunction preventing AT&T from altering your contract, or a declaratory judgment that the contract permits you to get out of it without an ETF in this circumstance.
Odds are that AT&T would be unlikely to show up for any lawsuit filed by an individual over a few hundred bucks, which would entitle you to both the ETF and your legal fees.
Granted, I'm a student not yet a practitioner, so all of this should be taken with several grains of salt. Additionally, none of this should be construed to constitute legal advice.
There's a binding arbitration clause in the TOS.
Odds are that AT&T would be unlikely to show up for any lawsuit filed by an individual over a few hundred bucks, which would entitle you to both the ETF and your legal fees.
Granted, I'm a student not yet a practitioner, so all of this should be taken with several grains of salt. Additionally, none of this should be construed to constitute legal advice.
There's a binding arbitration clause in the TOS.
skunk
Mar 25, 11:14 AM
As marriage is licensed by the state, it is in fact a privilege. The fact that it is near-universally granted doesn't make it any more a right.The fact that something is licensed does not change it from a right to a privilege.
Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights declares that "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses."
For most of Western history, marriage was a private contract between two families. Until the 16th-century, Christian churches accepted the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple’s declarations. If two people claimed that they had exchanged marital vows—even without witnesses—the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married.
State courts in the United States* have routinely held that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage.
Article 16 of the Universal Declaration of Human Rights declares that "Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality or religion, have the right to marry and to found a family. They are entitled to equal rights as to marriage, during marriage and at its dissolution. Marriage shall be entered into only with the free and full consent of the intending spouses."
For most of Western history, marriage was a private contract between two families. Until the 16th-century, Christian churches accepted the validity of a marriage on the basis of a couple’s declarations. If two people claimed that they had exchanged marital vows—even without witnesses—the Catholic Church accepted that they were validly married.
State courts in the United States* have routinely held that public cohabitation was sufficient evidence of a valid marriage.
Liquorpuki
Mar 13, 06:41 PM
I love when people don't read threads....
this was already posted, way to go...
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night
Did you even read the article you posted? The stored solar energy is drained after 8 hours. Which means if you have a day where the sun is obstructed, your city will black out.
this was already posted, way to go...
http://www.scientificamerican.com/article.cfm?id=how-to-use-solar-energy-at-night
Did you even read the article you posted? The stored solar energy is drained after 8 hours. Which means if you have a day where the sun is obstructed, your city will black out.
QCassidy352
May 5, 06:52 PM
I had about 2 dropped calls in 2 years with AT&T until very recently, and just in the past few weeks I've had a few (maybe 5?). Definitely annoying but my fiance has had even more with vzn, so what can ya do.
Rt&Dzine
Mar 24, 07:06 PM
"When they express their moral beliefs or beliefs about human nature ... they are stigmatised, and worse -- they are vilified, and prosecuted.
"These attacks are violations of fundamental human rights and cannot be justified under any circumstances," Tomasi said.
As soon as they quit trying to legislate and force their beliefs on the rest of us, the sooner they will be left alone to wallow in their archaic beliefs.
"These attacks are violations of fundamental human rights and cannot be justified under any circumstances," Tomasi said.
As soon as they quit trying to legislate and force their beliefs on the rest of us, the sooner they will be left alone to wallow in their archaic beliefs.
iJohnHenry
Mar 25, 06:27 PM
How many hours in a day do you people pursue these fruitless (no pun intended) arguments, when there are people in your own neighbourhood that could use a helping hand?
(Well, I for one feel better now.) :D
(Well, I for one feel better now.) :D
bokdol
May 2, 01:57 PM
i just cleaned out of the the computers at work. and the person had the installer window still open. they pressed ok but because they had 10 other windows open they really did not realize they authorized it to install.
it is not that they did not authorize it's that their computer had soo much stuff on they did not realize they authorized it.
it is not that they did not authorize it's that their computer had soo much stuff on they did not realize they authorized it.
archipellago
May 2, 04:50 PM
That's Mac OS X installed base, not the installed base of Macs, as I said. Mac OS X is not the only Mac OS out there. Reading comprehension is fun!
Which means, of course, that you can't back up your claims with facts.
So? That has nothing to do with your baseless claims about hackers.
so theres 50 mill + users of OS 9 out there when its ten years old...?
really...?
hmm, hope its not too windy for straw clutching over there!
zero clue...
Which means, of course, that you can't back up your claims with facts.
So? That has nothing to do with your baseless claims about hackers.
so theres 50 mill + users of OS 9 out there when its ten years old...?
really...?
hmm, hope its not too windy for straw clutching over there!
zero clue...
KidStallyn
Mar 18, 10:50 AM
They actually give you an extra 2gb of data now with the tethering plan. I suspect you argument is one of the main reasons that was implemented.
1) Why would I need an extra 2GB when I'm already Unlimited?
2) Why would I need to pay an extra $20 for 1s and 0s going from my laptop thru my phone. If I'm using the laptop, I'm not using my phone and vice versa. It's still single use.
3) Do you pay "Extra" for home internet because you have a wireless router that allows you to connect multiple PCs to the same connection?? How is tethering on a mobile phone any different??? This sets a precedence that could allow for home internet providers to charge on a per PC connect basis.
1) Why would I need an extra 2GB when I'm already Unlimited?
2) Why would I need to pay an extra $20 for 1s and 0s going from my laptop thru my phone. If I'm using the laptop, I'm not using my phone and vice versa. It's still single use.
3) Do you pay "Extra" for home internet because you have a wireless router that allows you to connect multiple PCs to the same connection?? How is tethering on a mobile phone any different??? This sets a precedence that could allow for home internet providers to charge on a per PC connect basis.
Rt&Dzine
Mar 13, 03:35 PM
Which have killed more? Hint: it's not nuclear reactors.
True, but the total deaths from Chernobyl are unknown. Many people dying in Russia, Norway and other affected countries from cancers or other conditions caused by the contamination aren't included in the totals.
True, but the total deaths from Chernobyl are unknown. Many people dying in Russia, Norway and other affected countries from cancers or other conditions caused by the contamination aren't included in the totals.
MacCoaster
Oct 10, 04:06 AM
Originally posted by ryme4reson
<EDIT> I am gonna try to run this on my brothers 333 celeron on a 66MHZ bus with 320 RAM, I know my 933 is not the fastest, but maybe it just found its competition. :) </EDIT>
I had a friend run my C# implementation on his 333MHz Celeron o/c'ed to 375MHz. His result was 108085. *GASP!* 375 MHz Celeron BEATS 933MHz PowerPC G4 (no L2/L3). This is interesting.
<EDIT> I am gonna try to run this on my brothers 333 celeron on a 66MHZ bus with 320 RAM, I know my 933 is not the fastest, but maybe it just found its competition. :) </EDIT>
I had a friend run my C# implementation on his 333MHz Celeron o/c'ed to 375MHz. His result was 108085. *GASP!* 375 MHz Celeron BEATS 933MHz PowerPC G4 (no L2/L3). This is interesting.
lighthouse_man
Apr 13, 03:01 AM
Why are you people comparing one app price tag to the whole suite price tag? For all we know, all the suite apps will be released individually and will total what the full suite now costs.
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